[Special Talk] Kinoko Nasu of "Fate" and David Jiang of "Honkai: Star Rail" - How do you face "I don't know if it's really what I want to draw"? How to realize your "dreams" and "desires.
I love the Fate series and the TYPE-MOON contents!"
So says David Jiang, producer of "Honkai: Star Rails". It seems that David was exposed to TYPE-MOON works such as "Fate/stay night" during his adolescence, which greatly influenced his activities as a creator. Indeed, TYPE-MOON works can be very serious if you come into contact with them during adolescence.
And what a surprise it was to have a conversation between David and Kinoko Nasu, the creator of the "Fate" series and TYPE-MOON's works! As a fan of both titles, I can't help but be surprised. As a fan of both titles, I can't help but feel a sense of surprise. This is truly a special conversation that transcends national borders!
Moreover, Mr. Nasu has actually played quite a few HoYoverse titles, including "Harakami" and "Honkai: StarRail". What, you played "Honkai: StarRail"? Seriously? When in the world is Nasu-san playing games? Don't miss the "fun of HoYoverse titles" that Nasu-san tells us about.
David's influences from TYPE-MOON's works. How to create a story and character design techniques, which are approached through "Collapse: Star Rail" and TYPE-MOON's works. And his attitude as a creator to give shape to "what he wants to draw. ...... It is truly a "dream dialogue," but at the same time, we heard many informative stories.
It is a wonderful conversation that can be enjoyed by both the pioneers (players) of "Honkai: Star Rails" and TYPE-MOON fans and masters! And if you are a "fan of both," ...... may be able to dream of something more than this dialogue. Please read to the end!
Isn't this actually the first time TYPE-MOON and HoYoverse have met?
─ ─ Thank you very much for your time today. This may be a question to start with, but why did David-san decide to have a dialogue with Kinoko Nasu-san this time?
Mr. David:
I personally grew up with many of Mr. Nasu's works from a young age, and I was inspired in many ways by his work when I was creating games.
In fact, we have met once before, but I thought it would be great if we could have a deeper exchange, which is why we decided to set up this interview. Thank you very much for your time today!
And there is one thing I would like to tell you, Nasu-san, at .......
Actually, I have the same birthday as Nasu-san!
Mr. Nasu:
Yeah, wow! This is not possible!
Mr. David:
When I was in high school, I was searching for profiles of game creators and noticed that I have the same birthday as Nasu-san (laughs).
Mr. Nasu:
I see. Perhaps one of us has been reincarnated from another world.
That makes me feel even closer to them. It's nice to meet you, too.
─ ─ I just heard you mention something about this, but have you and David met once before?
Mr. David:
Actually, I visited TYPE-MOON once before with Mr. Dawei Liu, who is also our president. At that time, we talked about various topics, such as our thoughts on their works and how they run their company.
Mr. Nasu:
Yes, that's right. I had the opportunity to meet everyone at HoYoverse once.
David and I hit it off in part at that time.
To some extent, I had expected that HoYoverse would be a company of people who love games and are driven by that passion, but what I heard at that time from ...... was really more than I had imagined. The passion of the creators plus a rational corporate philosophy. I thought, "Yes, this must be a big company.
I felt a sense of familiarity with the origins of such a company, but at the same time, I also felt a sense of admiration and respect, thinking, "There are people who have done things that we cannot do ourselves, using our love of something as fuel.
I am surprised that you two had such a connection. By the way, what exactly did you discuss at that time?
Mr. Nasu:
That is already a ............... state secret.
All of them:
(laughter).
Mr. Nasu:
I can't be more specific, but both companies were, in a positive sense, "a presence that neither of us could ignore. If I had a chance to talk to them personally, I would have loved to do so.
Also, I had a lot to say about "Klee" [*1]!
─ ─ Oh, you mean the Klee of "Hara-Kami"?
Mr. Nasu:
A friend of mine is a big fan of Klee. He has been playing "Hara-Kami" for a long time because of his love for Klee, and he was lamenting the fact that Klee never gets stronger. So I said to myself, "Go ask the Hoyoba people when Klee will get stronger! (laughs).
Mr. David:
I don't know if I can meet your expectations, but I'll let the "Hara Shin" team know in the meantime (laughs).
1 "Klee".
1 "Klee" is a character in "Genshin. A "Spark Knight" who belongs to the West Wind Knights. The character has a very adorable design and is popular among many users.
Kinoko Nasu talks about what makes "Honkai: Star Rail" so interesting.
─ ─ I had heard beforehand that "Mr. Nasu plays a lot of HoYoverse titles," but perhaps you play them with a lot of gusto?
Mr. Nasu:
Yes, I do. I have been holding out for "Honkai: Star Rail" until the PS5 version is released (......). Recently, the PS5 version was finally released, so I've been working on it little by little.
It was, after all, a long-awaited command-based RPG, and as a gamer, I was looking forward to "what's next after 'Harakami'?" I was looking forward to it. When I saw a friend of mine playing "Honkai: Star Rails" on PC as soon as I saw ......, though, I said to myself, "You can't give this away for free! (laughs).
Mr. Nasu:
I actually had the chance to play "Honkai 3rd," but ...... personally, I found it a bit hard to play on a smartphone. It's the kind of action that I like, but the swiping controls on a smartphone didn't really suit my skin.
I was thinking, "I wish I could play this action on a consumer platform someday. ......" Then "Hara-Kami" came out. That is why I have been playing "Hara-Kami" since the first day of service. At first, I arrogantly asked myself, "What kind of content grown on the soil of Japanese otaku culture could possibly show me?" I started playing "Haragami" from a superior or ......-mounted point of view.
Little by little, day by day, the games were filled with passion, technology, and above all, the dream of "this is the kind of world I wanted to play in. What had long been a dream within otaku culture was being output as a reality. I looked up to the heavens at the power of action and the level of perfection. Thank you."
Then I saw HoYoverse's slogan, "Tech Otakus Save the World," and I realized, "These are the people who really mean this.
─ ─ From there, as you have been playing "Honkai: StarRail," is there anything you would like to tell David?
Mr. Nasu:
I have only progressed up to Yarrylo-VI, so I can't say anything too deep about it, but I think "Honkai: StarRail" has a very solid basic concept and worldview setting based on the premise of "continuing for a long time" (......). I think.
This is something we were aware of when we launched "Fate/Grand Order" (hereinafter "FGO") [*2], but for an operational title, we always prepare a setting that provides "a place where users can play with peace of mind". It is true that RPGs can express an "infinite world," but there must be a proper framework.
And "Honkai: StarRail" has a very well-defined setting. When I first played "Honkai: StarRail," my first impression was, "This is a well thought-out setting for a management-type title.
2 "Fate/Grand Order
A smartphone RPG created as part of the "Fate" series, "Fate/Grand Order" is a long-running title that began operations in 2015 and remains one of the most popular titles to date.
Mr. David:
Thank you very much. ......
When "Honkai: Star Rail" was launched, we decided to keep it running for a long time. For example, all of the characters that appear in the "Penacony" that players will visit in Ver. 2.0 are hinted at and appealed to in the ver. 1.0 storyline and in the pre-release phase.
We have made various innovations in this work with respect to "a clear and expansive story" and "the structure of the world"!
Mr. Nasu:
Since it is a space opera to begin with, while presenting "there are various planets in this world" at the beginning of the game, the dramatic opening at the first space station "Herta" and the high game quality are shown as much as possible. Really, show us "this much"!
All:
(laughter).
Mr. Nasu:
From there, as a social game, we present a system of daily quests, etc. Then, we will go straight into the main story of Yalilo-VI and tell the players, "Look forward to this next planet! and tell the players to "look forward to the next planet! I think the game's series of leading lines are very beautifully designed.
The "way of looking ahead" as a story entertainment and the "way of looking ahead" as a game system are beautifully integrated. That is why I felt that the game was well thought out.
Once you make a mistake in this setting, it can cause anxiety from the user's point of view, wondering where the game is headed. However, "Honkai: Star Rail" had none of that. I think that the techniques and experience we have cultivated through past HoYoverse titles also played a part, but as a single title, it started out with a solid lineup.
That's why I was already ...... thinking, "Yes, I'm going to do this. If I wasn't so busy, I would be playing four hours a day, not one hour a day. I can't wait to catch up on the latest stories!
─ ─ Conversely, I would like to ask you, David, are you still quite fond of the "Fate" series and TYPE-MOON's contents?
Mr. David:
Of course I love them!
I think I first became aware of TYPE-MOON's works through the Internet around 2004. At first, I was just a casual fan, thinking "Saber is so cute! But the characters and worldview depicted in "Fate/stay night [Unlimited Blade Works]" ("UBW") [*3] had a huge impact on me, and it has influenced my view of life quite a bit.
Even in my current work, I sometimes utilize ideas and ways of thinking that I received from "UBW. It may be somewhat of a stretch to say this, but I think I am carrying on the theme of "love and justice" that I learned from ...... that work in "Honkai: StarRail".
3 "Fate/stay night [Unlimited Blade Works]".
One of the three main routes of "Fate/stay night". A TV anime version was also produced by ufotable.
Mr. Nasu:
I see. ...... That makes me happy.
Mr. David:
When we started planning "Honkai: StarRail," I didn't have a concrete idea of what kind of story I wanted to tell, but I did have an image in my mind that I wanted to tell the story of a hero.
The "heroes" that came to mind at that time were the Servants and characters from the "Fate" series.
─ So you were influenced by the "characters" in some ways.
David:
Another influence was the "idealistic" attitude of the work as a whole.
As a company grows in size, there comes a moment when you have to think in terms of profit. But even at such times, I think it is important to rethink, "What is my ideal?" I believe that it is important to rethink this question. Profit is important, of course, but I also try to consider the needs of my own heart and various options other than profit.
And when I make decisions like this, I often think, "What would the characters in the cartoons I used to watch when I was in school do? I often think about this. For example, I love Archer from "stay night," so I think, "What would Archer do in a situation like this? (laughs).
Mr. Nasu:
So you are whispering from behind David's back with that good-looking CV of Junichi Suwabe?
With that good-looking voice! (Laughs)
I understand the conflict as well. Profit as an operating title and integrity as a creator are always issues in development.
Mr. David:
Fortunately, I believe that HoYoverse's experience so far has proven to some extent that "even if you take idealism, it will benefit you in the long run," so I believe it is not a wrong choice.
And since many of our users have been exposed to such works, I am sure they will understand.
Mr. Nasu:
This is also true for us, but we are not selling the "performance" of the characters. Of course, there is nothing wrong with "good performance," but we want to emphasize the design and inner life of the character, and what kind of feelings the player gets from the character.
We first make a decision on whether or not the character is going to be the "thrust of your (the user's) life". Personally, I have always thought that this is a point of commonality between us and HoYoverse. In fact, when I heard what you just said, I thought, "I knew it.
Mr. David:
I am very honored. ......
─ ─ I was wondering, what exactly is the "love and justice learned from Fate" that you were talking about earlier, David?
Mr. David:
That is also still the story of "Archer". To be honest, when I first saw "stay night", I thought of him as "some kind of cool guy". ...... Then I came across "UBW", and his heavy past and his search for "justice" had a tremendous impact on me as an adolescent.
I also really love "Lancer (Koo Hulin)". I felt that he was "very manly" in the way he protected Rin Tohsaka even though Father Kotomine ordered him to "commit suicide, Lancer. So, at the time, I thought, "I want to be like Lancer! I thought (laughs).
Mr. Nasu:
What? Then, when the president of HoYoverse said, "Kill yourself," you can go to .......
All of them:
(laughter).
─ ─ When I heard that there was going to be this dialogue, I really wanted to ask you something... ...... Is Kulara and Svarogh still characters that pay homage and respect to Ilya and Berserker from "stay night"?
Mr. Nasu:
That's a great question, isn't it?
David: That's a great question, isn't it?
I can't say I didn't refer to ...... (laughs).
After all, there is something romantic about "a girl and a powerful being". And I think many people think of "Ilya and Berserker" when they think of this combination. We try to create new characters with uniqueness while referring to such "what everyone likes".
Mr. Nasu:
I agree. Otaku love this kind of design, and I think it is a royal road that has been tried and tested in various productions over the years. It's like there is always one for each work (laughs).
How to face "I don't know if it's really what I want to draw"
─ I believe that many users look forward to the "story" of both "Honkai: Star Rail" and the "Fate" series. I would like to ask you about this "method of keeping users interested and motivated with the story.
Mr. David:
It is true that "Honkai 3rd," a title I was previously involved with, also emphasized storytelling. With "Collapse: Star Rail" as well, we have continued to focus on the storyline.
As for what I am specifically conscious of, it is still a story of "love and justice" there as well. In creating a story, I start by thinking to myself, "How can I express love and justice in a story?" I think I often start by thinking, "How can I express love and justice in a story," and then solve the problems that emerge one by one.
I myself rarely write scenarios directly, but one of the scenario writers (Mr. Yakitori) for "Collapse: Star Rail" (......) has been with me since I was working on "Honkai 3rd". And just when I was working on "Collapse 3rd", he had some problems with scenario creation.
However, his scenario was already highly finished, so there was nothing that I could point out to him. In such a case, my advice was to ask him, "Is that really the story you want to tell? Is it really the character you like?" and to ask yourself, "Is that really the story you want to tell?
Therefore, I believe that it is more important to ask yourself whether or not the story is something you want to express, rather than the technical aspects of story creation. However, I myself am not a scenario specialist, so I think that my ability to create a script within the development team is about the middle of the pack (laughs).
All of them:
(laughs).
David:
When I first started as a producer, I thought that I should be the one to check and control every detail of the scenario, even the expression of the scenario. But as I started working with more people, I realized that I should trust their abilities more.
After all, even if I alone think, "I want to fix this part," it is only a matter of my own preference. And if I want to create a work that matches the current era, I think that scenarios drawn by younger scenario writers than myself would be more likely to resonate with today's young users, including their sensibilities.
─ What about you, Mr. Nasu?
Mr. Nasu:
Yes, I think so. I think it is important to keep in mind that we must create scenarios that match the times and catalysts, but apart from that, we also place importance on how to motivate the users. To be more specific, we have to "prepare a mystery" for any story.
The mystery of the world, the mystery of the characters, the mystery of the theme ......, there are many kinds of "mysteries," but in the end, no matter how interesting the story is, "would you want to read a story about a flat world with no danger, no uncertainty?" I guess, well, I'm not so sure.
There is a "question" that I can't help but wonder about.
I believe that there is something "to be revealed" for the user, and the desire to clarify and clear up that uncertainty is what pulls the focus.
Of course, an interesting worldview and characters are necessary, but once the user gets to know the world and characters, that is the end of the story. As David mentioned earlier, if there are no mysteries or questions, if you don't like the character, that's the end of the story.
In this way, the drama of each character is turned around after instilling a curiosity and desire for knowledge that makes the user want to read the story to the end. In this way, we believe we can naturally attract interest.
I think it is largely because I am a mystery lover, but this is something that everyone else does, so it is not something I can say in a high-handed way.
─ ─ I guess you are also greatly influenced by "mysteries"?
Mr. Nasu:
In my case, I wanted to write something beautiful. That's exactly what I wanted to do from the time I was a nobody. However, when I said "beautiful things," I was just longing for the words "I want to write beautiful things. It took me a very long time to realize the answer to the question, "What is something beautiful for me?
I think it was after 2010 that I accepted what "what is beautiful for me" and thought, "I will keep this form at the center of my work.
─ ─ What is this "beautiful thing for you, Nasu-san"?
Mr. Nasu:
That's right. In a word, it seems that the people and their state after "accomplishment" are what I respect the most.
─ Earlier, David mentioned that you "ask yourself if this is really what you want to draw," but do you ever wonder "is this really the story I want to draw? Do you ever wonder, "Is this really the story I want to draw?
Mr. Nasu:
Perhaps I have already brought that out in "The Garden of the Sinners" [*4].
After that, it was just inertia. I told myself, "This is the only talent I have, so I have to make a living at it. I said, "I want to write beautiful things," but I was just clinging to those words.
As I got older, I came to accept various things with an open mind. But there was still a sense of rivalry. ...... In the midst of all of this, I realized that "in the end, the most gratifying thing for me is to make people happy.
I am sure that there are people who are happiest when people are happy, and I think the majority of creators are like that. My heart is important, but service is also important. I think that "the creator's creativity and the cry of the soul will eventually come out on its own, so for now, as long as everyone is happy! That's what I'm thinking.
4 "The Garden of the Sinners
A full-length novel written by Kinoko Nasu. Initially published as a web novel and a doujinshi novel, it was later developed into a number of contents, including a paperback edition by Kodansha Bunko, a drama CD, and a movie version.
Mr. David:
I have experienced a period similar to the one you just mentioned.
Mr. Nasu:
In the case of something like a novel, where the creative process ends with you alone, you end up just facing yourself and creating a work of art, and that is the end of it.
On the other hand, creative work done within a large organization, such as game production, requires you to look at people other than yourself. At that time, the way one's mind is questioned and the way one looks at "what one wants to do" will probably change.
─ By the way, did you consult Mr. Takeuchi (Takashi) [*5] when you were troubled?
Mr. Nasu:
If I had, something might have changed. I wanted to show Takeuchi my "perfect self," so I was very strong and said, "I'll do something great next time," and so on. These days, every time we have a meeting, I say something like, "It's so hard, it's so hard, I want to play games, I want to eat delicious food," without hesitation (laughs).
5 "Takashi Takeuchi
Representative of TYPE-MOON. He has designed characters for "Tsukihime" and "Fate/stay night", illustrations for the novel "Kara no Kyoukai", and many other TYPE-MOON works.
─ Is that so (laughs)? I think that the story David mentioned earlier about working with scenario writers is similar to the relationship between an author and an editor. I am wondering how you expanded your creativity during those "stuck" periods as a creator.
Mr. Nasu:
After all, it is the works of other competitors that expand my creativity during those times. No matter how cold my heart is or how much I want to go down, when I see something good that others have created, my ...... rivalry is kindled. It's like, "Damn, this is too much fun, I'll do it too! I'll do it too!
If you keep using only yourself as firewood, you will eventually burn out.
I think you need the firewood of a rival in order to stay hotter for longer.
Mr. David:
As a creator, it is rather important to create a "virtual enemy.
The feeling of "I don't want to lose" stimulates our creative activities.
After all, there are times when you try to think on your own and end up losing sight of what you want to create. At such times, I look at the amazing works of others in the industry and think to myself, "I too will create something that will be as good as this! I will create something that is as good as this!
Differences in "storytelling" between the two. What does it mean to "set up the game"?
─ ─ I would like to continue asking about the "story", but I think that the combination of the story and the system is important in the case of management-type RPGs such as "Collapse: Star Rail" and "FGO". I would like to ask you both about "how to assemble a comprehensive game".
Mr. David:
We made a few mistakes there at the beginning of the development ...... (smiles).
In the beginning, we had separate teams designing the story and the game system. As a result, we struggled to build the game as a whole.
The solution we adopted was to have a meeting once a week between the scenario writers and the system developers.
For example, the system side would make a request for roguelike-like content, and the scenario side would respond with, "Well, how about this kind of story for that content? The scenario developer will make suggestions so that they can interact well with each other.
Then, over a period of one to two months, we try to reconcile the perceptions of both teams. Once the two teams have reached a consensus, we make arrangements to move on to the formal creation of the content.
─ I see, so that's how new contents such as the "simulated universe" [*6] are created.
Mr. David:
In some cases, such as the "simulated universe," the planning process starts on the system side, while in other cases, new content is proposed by the scenario side.
For example, "Clock Trick" [*7] is a content that started as a proposal from the scenario side, saying, "I want to write this kind of scenario, so I want this kind of system. There are cases where a system is derived from a story.
We believe that it is important for both teams to understand each other's work, even if they are on different teams. We want the scenario writers to play the game thoroughly and understand the game system. We also make sure that the system developers not only program the game but also watch the animation (laughs).
Mr. Nasu:
FGO" is not a game with such a complex system, so to some extent, the development team has already decided what we can do. That is why we are always thinking about how we can show what we can do with "FGO" in a different way than usual. That's why every year we are always thinking about how we can show what we can do with FGO in a different way.
It was a long time ago, but in the early days when we were about to launch "FGO" (......), I was asked, "Nasu-san, please explain what kind of game FGO is to the development team! I was told. Of course, it would be boring to talk about the detailed settings there.
So I explained, "First, there are seven chapters. I present that the objective is to clear these. Within this basic premise, we will do various things".
From the user's point of view, we present the end point: "You can see the goal of this game from the beginning. However, inside this big box is still skimpy.
Once we decide on the seasonal events and pickup characters to be packed into the box called "main story," we will narrow down the ambiguous parts of the story to make it into one big story. This is the general method of making "FGO.
In fact, we did the same thing for the "stay night" project. ...... I think the main reason why "stay night" was so popular was because we first announced that there would be seven classes in the game.
─ ─ What do you mean by that?
Mr. Nasu:
Just like "FGO," which first presented seven stages, "stay night" presented to users from the beginning, "There are only seven classes in this game. This was also a part of my response to the Japanese entertainment of the 90's that I was exposed to at the time.
Basically, in 90s entertainment, one strong opponent after another emerged. And as long as it was popular, it would continue in that pattern. Of course that format is fun, but from the user's point of view, there is no end to it. ......
That is why, by creating a firm framework of "seven classes" and "seven singularities" at the beginning, we make the users feel at ease with the world. Once the users feel at ease, we fill in the gaps in the world with what's in season at the time, and make it look attractive. In a sense, this may be the common thread that runs from "stay night" to "FGO.
Mr. David:
The Chinese game industry also has this concept. It's called "layering gameplay," and it's said that if users don't first decide what they want to play within a certain period of time, from daily to weekly, it won't work as an operational game.
Mr. Nasu:
And since "FGO" is an operational title, we also determine the "annual schedule.
We decide on a rough schedule for the next three years or so, and then decide on the "event titles" that will be held within that framework. For example, once we decide on the "Valentine's Day Event" to be held in February of the following year, we will determine which Servants will be implemented.
However, this is a "three-years-future" projection. Frankly speaking, we ourselves do not know what we will be doing three years from now. That's why we are always looking at illustrators who, from our point of view, make us feel "This person is living one year ahead of us! That's why we sometimes ask illustrators who we feel will be around a year from now, "Why don't you draw a character with this kind of setting? We are not sure what we will be doing in the next three years.
After the design is completed, I talk with the scenario writers again, and we finalize a specific scenario policy, saying, "If the character is finished like this, let's talk about this event like this. This process, including the entire process, is decided based on the schedule at the beginning.
And the most important thing in this cycle is "as much as possible, do not do the same thing.
As long as we are not doing the same thing, it will always be fresh, at least within that game. This is, in a sense, a simple policy for continuing an operational title.
─ I see that the illustrators participating in "FGO" were also chosen based on such criteria. Then, what kind of instructions or requests did you give to the scenario writers other than Mr. Nasu?
Mr. Nasu:
First of all, I told the writers participating in "FGO", "FGO is a story about this kind of theme. I explain the general storyline and ask the writers to take care of the rest.
Once the general framework of the story has been laid out, the main chapters can be written by the writers, allowing them to use their own creativity. For event quests, on the other hand, we ask the writers to provide what the users want, while taking advantage of the gameplay. We ask that you "write something properly meaningful" for each form of scenario.
Of course, each writer has his or her own characteristics, so it is impossible to achieve complete uniformity, and sometimes problems arise in the form of "the setting is perfect, but the storyline is too honorable," or "the storyline is really jumping, but the setting is out of order. But this is exactly what I am looking for in an individual writer.
At such times, I adjust the parameters of the plot that are uneven as my supervisor. In the former case, I adjust the plot of the story, and in the latter case, I adjust the setting. This adjustment is made to protect the overall coloring of the work "FGO".
Well, but ...... producer positions are like this everywhere (laughs).
Mr. David:
I have been doing that kind of work ever since I was working on "Collapse 3rd". In the case of "Honkai: StarRail," we have a good team of writers, so my workload has decreased (laughs).
However, yesterday, Yakitori (the main scenario writer for the Honkai series) was still struggling with the Hades scenario and was working on it until 2 am. ......
Mr. Nasu:
Please tell the scenario writer of "Honkai: Star Rail" that there will be no time for rest of mind once it starts. ......
All of them:
(laughter).
Mr. Nasu:
When I was working as a doujinshi, if 10 people saw my work, it was enough if they were satisfied, and if all 10 complained, I could just pass it off as "Hmmm .......
But as the title became huge, even more users would see my work. The number of users swells to 300,000, then 600,000, then 1,000,000,...... and finally you get the opinions of nearly millions of people all in one place, and you can't normally do something like this!
And I think that is exactly the kind of hell the "Honkai: StarRail" team is in right now. Good luck to the staff, ...... and be rewarded ......!
Mr. David:
As Dr. Nasu said, our development team is very happy to see that "Honkai: StarRail" has been well received by players from all over the world. However, as the number of users grows, we are faced with the challenge that it is becoming increasingly difficult to cater to everyone's tastes and preferences.
For example, for those users who are looking forward to story and world updates, we must devote our resources to the creation of new planets such as "Penaconny" and deliver a story experience as innovative as Yalilo-VI and the Sacred Ship "Luo Fu" on this banquet planet.
On the other hand, we have spent an inordinate amount of time finishing and adjusting end content such as the "simulated universe" and the "Garden of Forgetfulness" for our users, who are heavily focused on the various content aspects.
Anyway, as an operation-based title, we always try to incorporate user feedback and iteratively improve various UI and specifications.
Everyone on the development team has been working really hard on ...... and the result is that "Honkai: StarRail" has evolved with the times and is always a fresh gaming experience!
I would like to ask you two how to create a "live" atmosphere for everyone to enjoy.
─ ─ I would like to ask you a little more about "how to create an operational title". I think both titles emphasize the "live" feel of the story being updated in real time, but how do you create that sense of unity among users?
Mr. Nasu:
I think the "live" feeling is more a matter of timing to make the FGO game the most interesting. It's not a matter of, "That thing is popular right now, so let's do it on FGO, too! I try to find the timing when I am sure that if we do this within the flow of FGO, the users will enjoy it.
In this regard, we try to create a system that will appeal to users who are serious about playing "FGO". For example, when we say, "We won't add any more new classes! We will not be adding any new classes anymore! And then, the new class is meaningful to the story. We try to create events with timing that will please users who are sincere about the story.
Apart from that, our first priority for seasonal events is stability. These are events that must occur in people's lives already, so we try to create events that "always and every time meet users' expectations.
Mr. David:
Although there is a part similar to what Mr. Nasu just mentioned, the current HoYoverse titles, including "Honkai: StarRail," are based on "simultaneous global operations. Therefore, "seasonal events" are set a little low.
After all, holidays, festival days, etc. are completely different in different parts of the world, so it is still difficult to match all events with global operations. Instead, we focus on creating original festivals within the game.
Mr. Nasu:
OH, Sea Lantern Festival! [*8
Mr. David:
That's exactly what it is (laughs).
*8 "Sea Lantern Festival
This is a limited-time event that is held periodically in "Harakami. It is a festival held in the in-game country of Rigetsu, and is held every year in January or February in real time.
Mr. David:
Another emphasis is on "PR that matches the main storyline.
After all, the actual main storyline is already determined before we think about specific promotions and marketing. We then set up scenarios such as "this character will grow" or "this character will leave the game," and consider how and when to promote in accordance with these scenarios.
The problem with this is that sometimes our own production can be difficult because we determine the storyline ahead of time. ...... After all, it is a game, so not only the scenario but also the direction, animation, etc. are created at the same time, but sometimes the scenario is finalized first and the coordination of each team is slightly off. But in the end, we manage to work it out!
For example, "Collapse: Star Rail" ver. 1.5 was scheduled to be delivered on "November 15, 2023" in the schedule stage.
Therefore, we decided to make the concept of this ver. "spooky" ......, that is, "spooky, yet silly and funny", just in time for "Halloween", which is close to the time of delivery. This idea was the basis for the creation of "Lost in the Genteel Night".
The main storyline was to overthrow the spiritual threat posed by "Soyo," and we asked the pioneers to form a so-called "Ghostbusters team" (laughs).
In terms of character creation, we believe we were able to bring out attractive magistrates belonging to the Ten Kingdoms by introducing "Fofo," a professional supernatural phenomenon specialist on the Immortal Ship "Luo Fu," "Cold Crow," a natural enemy of the evil forces, and "Yukigui," the judge of life and death.
───That is how the story of Ver. 1.5 was created, isn't it? As I asked you about "events," I was reminded that while HoYoverse titles create original festivals and events, "FGO" often adopts real-life events such as Halloween and Christmas.
Mr. Nasu:
As David mentioned earlier, one of the weaknesses of HoYoverse is that we cannot create common events worldwide because of our worldwide expansion. With "FGO", the event schedule, etc. is basically tailored to the "Japanese domestic" market, so we are able to push the social nature with users in Japan. ......
Mr. David:
There was a time when we were thinking of implementing in-game events that were in line with reality, but when it came time to do it, we had to adjust to schedules around the world, so we gave up on the idea. ......
Mr. Nasu:
Even for a single event called "Christmas," the customs and visuals of Christmas are completely different from country to country, so we ended up having to adapt to some countries. This would create a sense of alienation in the countries that were not able to match the event, so we just couldn't implement it.
Therefore, when looking at global expansion, it is best to use the game's worldview to declare, "This is our festival! I think HoYoverse's style of declaring "This is our festival! But I won't forget the meal delivery event!
Does "otaku culture" have borders?
Mr. Nasu:
Since we have just talked about "world development", I wanted to talk about "character design". ...... I had the vague impression that HoYoverse's character designs were "solidly based on what the staff likes" until around the time of "Collapse 3rd" or so. I had the vague impression that HoYoverse's character designs were "solidified by the staff's favorites.
However, from "Harakami" onward, it is no longer just a matter of "putting in what the staff likes. First of all, there is the Chinese character design as a base, but based on that, the culture of each country, such as France and Germany, is incorporated. The characterization was getting more and more otaku-cultural, but without any peculiarities.
From there, when you get to "Collapse: Star Rail," that design quality has been sublimated to perfection, so that anyone who looks at the design can instantly recognize it and say, "Oh, that's a Star Rail character. I strongly felt while playing "Disintegration: StarRail" that no matter what the taste of the character is, there is a Chinese design archetype in the center.
So I thought, "This design direction is what will become the new otaku method from China. ...... The scale of the game and the development power tend to be talked about, but HoYoverse is also outstanding in terms of design. I think so every time it is updated.
Mr. David:
Thank you ......!
But actually, that is also a point we are struggling with a lot. I think we need to unify the taste of the characters and the worldview in order to ensure the integrity and quality of the work as a whole.
As a result, "Harakami" and "Honkai: Star Rail" are designed in such a way that you can tell which work it is at a glance, as Nasu-san mentioned.
At the same time, however, I also think that "if we continue with this policy, the novelty and freshness of new characters will wear off for our users." I also think that if we continue with this policy, the novelty and freshness of the new characters will fade away. In other words, I think there is a possibility that the design will become "familiar.
We believe it is necessary to modify this policy little by little as we look ahead to the long-term operation of the site.
─ Is this a case of "when the characters are lined up in a row, they are all the same" or something like that?
Mr. Nasu:
Yes, there is no doubt that "the freshness of the standard product is diminished because it is a standard product.
Mr. Nasu:
In that sense, Japanese otaku culture is Galapagos.
It is fluid, like a kind of "slime," and what was popular 10 years ago is completely different from what is popular today. This is quite strange from a cultural point of view. Why would we not follow the same trend that we declared "I'm going with this!"? and why don't we make a formula for what we declared we were going to do!" (......).
Mr. David:
It is often said that entertainment fads are in a "loop".
When comparing otaku culture in Japan and China, for various reasons we can't consider them equal, but I think ...... that the current fads in China tend to be similar to what was popular in Japan a while ago.
However, I think this is also due to the fact that there is a repetition of "periods when new things keep coming out" and "periods when trends are fixed," in which sometimes the timescales and tastes of both countries match and sometimes there is a slight discrepancy between the two.
Mr. Nasu:
I think what I just said ultimately comes down to "how to protect traditional culture. Of course we can protect it. ...... Well, to put it a bit crudely, otaku are devoting their souls to entertainment rather than traditional culture!
If someone invents something good, they always improve it. So, as far as otaku are concerned, they may just keep turning out good things in their "culture as otaku" rather than "preserving their own national culture".
For example, if we were talking about games made in China, there are some that keep the good old "wuxia" [*9], and there are some that are hybrid like HoYoverse's. The former type of wuxia things belong to "traditional culture," but like HoYoverse, he says, "No, I want to see the newest things right now! I want to do what I like best!" and I think it is the accumulation of culture as an otaku.
David said earlier that "the trends in China are similar to what was popular in Japan a while ago," but ...... I think that China is at the forefront of otaku culture trends right now. One look at it and you can tell at once, "Yes, this is what otaku like the most right now! You can tell at once.
9 "Wuxia" (martial arts)
A genre of Chinese entertainment films. It is a story in which the characters are "chivalrous men" who are skilled in martial arts and respect duty. It is the subject of many novels, movies, and other media.
─ ─ Although it is just a personal feeling, I feel that there is no big difference between the current otaku culture in Japan and China, and that everyone seems to be enjoying the contents in the same way. Is this "cultural difference" largely due to the fact that it has been filled in over the past few years?
Mr. David:
I think it is more a difference between "for the masses" and "for the core geeks. In the case of the former, "mass market" content, I think the differences and differences between countries are being filled in, but when it comes to the latter, core interests and newly emerging trends, I think China is a little behind.
To give an example, in Japan, there is a fashion culture called "jimenei-kei," but in China, it is still a minor attribute. In China, "minekei" is not such a widespread concept.
However, even so, I think Japan and China are still closer countries. I feel that the "Chinese-based characters" that Mr. Nasu mentioned earlier are accepted as products in Japan without any problems. We have been paying attention to the fact that such designs are widely accepted in Japan.
For example, "Kagami-ryu" in "Honkai: Star Rail" has many elements of "Tsukiha Bijin" in her design. And in China, there is a Chinese saying, "A flower blooms under the moon," which means that even if the moon beauty looks glamorous, it will not continue to bloom for long and will fall off in an instant.
This is a very similar situation to that of "Kagami-ryu". ...... Perhaps because Japan and China are culturally close, it is easier to understand such "Chinese nuances" in some areas. On the other hand, it may be difficult to communicate with people outside of Asia, such as those in North America and Europe.
However, with the spread of the Internet and SNS, there are of course users in North America and Europe who understand and consider the Chinese design intent of Kagiryu and blades.
Mr. Nasu:
Even though you are selling so well, there is still a wall there!
How to give form to dreams and desires, the source of creativity
─ ─ You just mentioned "otaku culture," and from a user's point of view, I think the main attraction of both titles is that they seem to be filled with "what I want to do as an otaku, what I like to do". For example, "Honkai: Star Rail" also has a person who is furiously thinking internally, "I want to write attractive male characters! I'm sure there are people who are thinking "I want to write attractive male characters!" at .......
Mr. David:
Actually, that is part of the commercial decision as well as the "preference" of the development team members, of course. However, I can say without a doubt that the development team has put their heart and soul into every character they have created.
Jing Yuan," the general of the Seon Shu, is always in the forefront of the battle while plotting his schemes. Fofo," a girl who, despite her cowardice, has unexpectedly become a judge of the Ten Kingdoms. Topaz," who has already risen to a high-level executive position in the Star Peace Company's "Strategic Investment Department" at a young age and wields tremendous skill while possessing exceptional good looks. We believe that each and every user will be able to find the character of his or her choice with the wide variety of characters available, such as .......
Mr. Nasu:
After all, that is the part where we have strong marketing power as a large corporation.
With a title of this scale, there is no room for failure.
Mr. David:
We report these "user reaction to character" survey data directly to the director of character design. They are still human beings, so we share the reactions of users who are happy with the characters so that their work is rewarded (laughs).
And as for the characters to be implemented, I am going to be a bit realistic, but ...... characters have a mission to "generate sales" to some degree, so the basic design may differ accordingly. We are always searching for a balance between "sales" and "design.
Therefore, some characters are created with a relatively free spirit and with a light commercial objective, and in some cases, we take on the challenge of creating characters that have the potential to develop a new customer base.
For example, Aojaku who always skips work, Katsura-no-Fen who is always thinking about earning followers, Sampo who always says and does suspicious things, etc. ......
Mr. Nasu:
In "Street Fighter II," "Why do you include Zangief [*10]?" I remember there was a discussion about "Why include Zangief [*10]? The answer to that question was, "Zangief's presence makes Ryu and the others, who are of average physique, shine brighter.
We can't have only characters who are loved by everyone. We need to create "holes in the sexuality," otherwise the diversity of the world will not be preserved. As a result, the "protagonist type," which in a sense is the most immature, also gains characteristics.
Well, in my case, the characters I used were Zangief and Dhalsim, so Ryu and his friends seemed more minor.
All of them:
(laughs).
10 "Zangief".
A professional wrestler from the Soviet Union who first appeared in Street Fighter II. He is characterized by his muscular body and unique Mohawk head.
Mr. Nasu:
In that respect, we ourselves have two types of characters that are needed in the main story: those born of necessity and those born of dreams. ...... No, I think it is more accurately "those born of desire"! The wonderful masterpiece "Dungeon Mei", which was recently completed, also talked about "desire", and I think it is fair to say that "dreams" are indeed "desires".
First of all, the former "characters born of necessity" are personified concepts that should be expressed in each story. For example, "Oberon" and "Tezcatlipoca" in "FGO" were conceived first. After deciding, "I'm going to create a character with this role! Then, after deciding "I want to create a character with this role," we place an order with an artist who we are confident will express it. Then, I place an order to an artist whom I am confident that he/she will be able to express it. If we receive a perfect score of 100, we will respond to it.
On the other hand, "characters born from dreams and desires" are based on the creator's "I want this kind of character! I want to see this kind of character! and "I want to see this kind of character! And illustrations are also born from dreams and desires, such as "I want this artist to draw a girl that I really like! It all starts with dreams and desires (laughs).
Mr. Nasu:
I think the reason creators continue to produce good games forever when they become managers is because they have "their own desires".
Everyone has their own desires, but the vectors of those desires are different. Roughly speaking, "I want to be financially successful," "I want to be socially successful," "I want to live peacefully," "I want to be with the person I love," and so on. ......
Among these, creators in particular must have the desire to "create my ideal character, my ideal story. As long as this is present in the management team, I believe that someday a "good game" will surely be created.
Mr. David:
I think that no matter how large the scale of the company, you should always take care of your own desires. If you don't, you will end up with "boring" games that are the closest to the average. You should be faithful to your desires, even in the sense of "aiming above average.
The development team of "Honkai: StarRail" also creates content with the idea that "if we like it, someone else will surely like it too.
─ What I personally find amazing about HoYoverse is that they are aware of "marketing as a big company," yet they continue to follow their passion as creators.
Mr. David:
I mentioned earlier that we share user reactions with creators, but they only use them as a reference to validate and modify their own ideas. While we incorporate some of the users' reactions, we don't make them go in the exact opposite direction in terms of the direction of the characters and so on.
Basically, we trust the creators' own sensibilities here, too.
Mr. Nasu:
So you are saying, "We are making adjustments while taking advantage of the unique qualities of each character.
However, TYPE-MOON is not completely free, either. Takeuchi is in charge of the final safety lock. For the past three years, I have been saying to myself, "I want to put Passion Lip [*11] in a bathing suit! My lip is the best!" But Takeuchi says, "Mushroom, you can't do that.
*11 "Passion Lip".
A character from "Alter Ego" who first appeared in "Fate/EXTRA CCC". A girl with a bust that feels quite powerful and vicious claws that don't match.
───Melt Lilith could have gone!
Mr. Nasu:
Yes, that's right.
I'm being stopped for the convincing reason that "I don't know if Passionlip's swimsuit will pass muster from a screening standpoint." ...... I'm going to spend another year or so trying to convince them.
The first thing to do is to make sure that you have a good idea of what you are looking for. When I was playing "Harakami" and "Collapse: Star Rail," I was particularly surprised at the passion that went into the creation of both games.
Whether it is the movement of the characters or the beautiful movie that decorates the last part of the event, ....... When I saw this, I thought, "No matter how big HoYoverse is, they didn't cut corners because everyone is passionate about what they do.
Basically, creators can't betray their own passion, and they can't cut corners. I have come to realize over the past four years that this has led to that surplus. I don't think any other company in the world has been able to achieve this style of "being a huge company, yet everyone is passionate about what they do.
Mr. David:
Thank you very much! I am very honored. ......
─ It was very valuable for me to hear your "passion and commitment", Nasu-san and David-san. Thank you very much for your time today! (End)
Perhaps all of you are now thinking only of "passion lip swimsuits".
Anyway, this was a conversation in which we heard a lot about the "passion" and "commitment" of TYPE-MOON and HoYoverse. Well, in a sense, Passionlip is also the embodiment of "passion" and "commitment!
From a player's point of view, the first thing I feel when playing the works of both companies is the outpouring of "dreams, desires, passion, and love as an otaku. This is what attracts fans so strongly, and I think it is the "core" that keeps showing us players our "dreams.
I myself, listening to this interview, felt that it is because games are made by people with such passion that they are able to continue to show their dreams to players. I hope that we will continue to be entertained by this mass of passion created by a world-class geek. I hope that you will continue to show us game fans such "embodiments of dreams and desires.
Simply put, "I'll be waiting for your continued supply!" That's what I mean!
And to the pioneers, I hope you will take this opportunity to experience the "Fate" series and TYPE-MOON contents. Furthermore, I would like TYPE-MOON fans and masters to take this opportunity to get in touch with "Honkai: Star Rail". I have just started a proselytizing section at ....... They are both great works, so please play them if you like. I hope that the exchange of "otaku culture" will continue to expand your dreams!
And if you know both titles, ...... may eventually be a "good thing" for you! In other words, if you are exposed to both works now, you may have a "dream" as wonderful as Penacony ......! Please look forward to the "next dream", not the next star!
TL : Me & DeepL